Tom Brown and Me Debate Trump

I'm having a great discussion with Tom-let me again stipulate that Tom is a great guy and basically my best reader-as he leaves lots of comments, hint, hint. Though one way even he could improve is if he takes this little post to heart. LOL.

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/if-you-would-to-donate-to-last-men-and.html

Ok, enough fundraising for the month, I promise!

Anyway, Tom understands a lot of my Trump Democrat argument but still feels a little uneasy about it. The Trump phenom rubs him the wrong way. In this he's not alone. I'm probably the weirdo here and not him.

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/i-totally-disagree-with-charles-blow-on.html

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/matt-tabbai-on-trump.html

As to Tom, some time reasonable people can disagree. I have a good reader and friend on Twitter who thinks that I've been attacking Joe Biden. I cant convince her otherwise even though this is false-I love Biden but hate the media feeding frenzy about him running as it only serves to kick Hillary in the shins again and again and again.

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/the-biden-frenzy-shows-media-loves-its.html

To me it's too late for the Vice President. He should have started this a year ago if running were his interest. Now I don't fault him personally as the man has just suffered something no father should ever have to do-bury his own son.

Seems to me not unfair for God to let parents bury their children rather than the reverse... So what Biden has suffered is cruel and unusual.

My bet is he'll finally decide not to. He wasn't interested in doing so until Beau's tragic passing and reports show that he's really not himself anymore.

In any case DNC donors are with Hillary 100 percent.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/joe-biden-president-2016-decision-213103

But Tom is the kind of guy who enjoys a good discusssion. I find even people who agree with nine things I say if I say a tenth thing that disagrees with them they get mad at me.

Now what Tom has been saying I think many agree with but I strongly disagree with him.

"I agree that most of the party is perverse (well, what about Pataki? You'd know better than I). I don't agree that they are all as bad as each other though. I think almost all have a few characteristics that make them either more or less repulsive than the others."

"I haven't looked at Trump's position on abortion, Iran and taxes in great detail, but I'll take your word for it, and I'll agree those are important. And I agree that he's hardly a Republican. He's more a cult of personality, which is in some ways worse."

- See more at: http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/why-im-trump-democrat.html?showComment=1440783612900#c105886373103259719

See this is good because I can see where I fundamentally disagree. 

1. This is a minor point but Pataki has said many wild and woolly things lately. 

2. I disagree that they're not all as bad as each other. Now how do I come to this judgment? By looking at policies that I care about. Iran, abortion, and taxes are important. 

I Have written about Trump's more reasonable abortion stance a number of times as well as Iran. To cinch it just see what Planned Parenthood says about him. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/11/donald-trump-is-planned-parenthood-s-favorite-republican.html

What he says about Iran deal makes a lot of sense to-that whether or not you love the terms it's very hard to just say 'I'm going to rip it up on day one' like Scott Walker does. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-08-28/donald-trump-wants-to-raise-his-own-taxes-but-would-he-kill-the-1031-real-estate-break-

Now those are three issues that matter a lot to me. To be sure on Iran and abortion, he's not as bad as the GOP but still far inferior to Hillary. On capital gains though I wholly agree with him. 

I disagree that they're not all as bad as each other. Of the candidates who are in the presidential race what is the big difference with regard to issues between the various Republicans? 

I'd say that if there are any differences they're minor. And it's important not to fall into the Green Lantern Theory of Presidential Power. 

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/green-lantern-theory-bernie-sanders.html

Green Lanternism thinks that the President has teh power to achieve anything he wants to do. So if he runs on it he will deliver it-unless his campaign promise was a lie. 

In truth, he has a Congress and judiciary to deal with as well as many structural economic and societal factors that limit his power with the best will in the world. 

That's why while I don't think Trump will ever really be elected I'd take him over Jeb. As Trump really isn't a Republican he'd probably get a lot more support form the GOP Congress than a real Republican would and therefore his power to do mischief is already greatly reduced. 

In my view of American politics in 2015, it's not personality but party that really matters. What I'm voting for is less just Hillary over Jeb than Democrats over Republicans. In many parliamentary systems this is how you vote. 

Krugman nails this point here. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/13/opinion/it-takes-a-party.html?_r=0

Party tells us what they'll do rather than personal idiosyncrasies. Now what makes Trump interesting is that he's not really a Republican but rather a Right wing populist in the tradition of Pat Buchanan, Ross Perot-though he was unusually a populist of the Center-and George Wallace. 

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/shades-of-george-wallace-30000-come-out.html

So Trump if he did win he would be much less in thrall to the Republican party than normal-the same would be true of Bernie in the Democratic party. 

But Tom says something else interesting that gives me a better idea of where he's really coming from which is helpful. Often people make comments and my reaction is 'Ok, you're saying this, but why?'-or as economists put it 'Ok but what's your model?'

So what is Tom's model of politics? He seems to be very suspicious of it in general-which sounds sort of libertarian but he's not on the Far Right. He sounds sort of a 'centrist libertarian' to coin a new term. 

Or maybe he's radically apolitical. Now it's clear that he doesn't like the cult of personality and this is clearly what Trump is. But it seems that he is very sensitive to this phenomenon. 

"Now I'll tell you my little story: I shook hands with Obama once... I attended his rally by accident (it started forming up right outside a city college class I was taking on the weekends... so I literally walked right into it after class let out... I had no idea what was going on at first). The primary was still going on (it was 2007). I'm not a patient person, so I almost gave up on it (I waited about 10 or 20 min) when I spotted some friends coming to see it. I stood in the back with them... and that's right where Obama entered and exited, so I was able to video myself shaking his hand."

"How does that relate? Well during the rally they started doing this chant thing. I found it slightly embarrassing... but what was funny to me was my friends found it to be outright repulsive: don't get me wrong, they were all Democrats and I'm sure they voted for Obama in the general (and agreed with him on most issues)... but they sure didn't like the "mob" feel of a group all chanting the same thing in a repetitive manner... Hahaha... I wouldn't go THAT far, but I can sympathize!"

"It seems to me (so far anyway) that Trump's campaign is ALL that part: all "mob feelings"... to the point where I'm repulsed by it. So again, even if he were running as a Democrat and I agreed with him on every single issue, if that's he drums up support, I don't know if I'd vote for him."

"The birther thing was an indication of that. It shows that he's a guy who creates his own reality and gives others a vicarious thrill to lose themselves and go along for the ride. It's what cult leaders do. They're brimming over with self confidence. They know how to incite a mob. It's inconceivable (to themselves and their 'flock') that they could ever be wrong. I find that to be repulsive - See more at: 

http://lastmenandovermen.blogspot.com/2015/08/why-im-trump-democrat.html?showComment=1440783612900#c105886373103259719

First of all, to digress, I'm gtatified to hear he was in college so relatively recently. So I do have young readers. I thought Tom was fairly young though I thought Nanute was young too. Not that I don't' love my less young readers. I'm stepping in it here. 

But Tom's background shows that he's awfully sensitive-and apparently his Rortian 'peer group' may be even more sensitive too the cult of personality. 

I mean if you're put off by someone chanting a candidate's name at a rally then you just don't approve of political activity as such. As to the mob thing I'm tempted to say that's democracy for you!

But there is no candidate for office that doesn't have supporters chanting his/her name. 

All I would say is that there is a saying 'No justice, no peace' and I don't always like that idea either but sometimes it has some truth. Ideally maybe many folks feel like Tom-they want to be able to ignore politics and in a general way that might be the ideal. 

But when many are suffering from the GOP's awful immigration and abortion policies, then a little noise is worth it to finally put these policies to bed. 

I think I have this feeling that Tom has about 'chanting the same thing in a repetitive manner' too but not in politics but more out of activists. 

When activists start chanting what 'This is what we demand' I feel like 'well what about me, that isn't what I'm demanding. 

Like with Black Lives Matter I agree with their basic grievances and policy demands but am ambivalent about their methods.