They may have been on the wrong side in loving Bernie Sanders but they were 100 percent right on Brexit being the wrong way to go.
"Until the final days before the referendum, much of the coverage outside of the UK discussed the "Brexit" in economic terms. But particularly for young people in the UK, deciding whether to leave the European Union was a bigger question of national identity, with the "Leave" campaign representing a rejection of immigrants and foreigners and the "Remain" campaign representing a hopeful cosmopolitanism."
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/24/this-comment-perfectly-explains-why-brexit-has-left-the-uks-young-feeling-so-devastated.html
I've had some interesting debates with two of my long time readers, Nanute and Greg. Greg in particular thinks it was a good move as it frees Britain of the EU.
Maybe so, but it might also free Scotland from the UK and reduce the UK to Little England. What we seem to be watching is the dissolution of perhaps both the EU and the UK.
What I don't agree with is this frees up the UK to do better fiscal or monetary policy. Again, the Brits never had the euro so they were not constrained. Their austerity cannot be blamed on Brussels.
Another argument Greg made that I do disagree with is that British youth who voted to stay were tricked by a EU sales pitch of how it's supposed to work.
I don't agree. I think the young folks saw that even if there are some real problems with the status quo, this doesn't make any change from it a great idea.
Again, Hitler was a big change from the Weimar Republic that was obviously a far from prefect regime.
Still Hitler was something of a 'mistake' to say the least.
Are Hitler comparisons over the top? Usually. Normally, I agree you should observe Godwin's Law.
But every once in awhile we have abnormal times.
A lot of the anti trade, anti immigrant hysteria we have now, we had in the 30s.
Arguably, Hitler's economy actually worked pretty well for awhile-the wonders of forced labor are amazing.
But the response of the UK youth demonstrate that the European project is not all bad. It did after all prevent another European World War.
And clearly for the youth, the idea of being a European means something. Here is a young person in the UK:
"Why Britain’s Break-Up With The EU Has Broken My Heart."
"As a child of immigrants, I am deeply ashamed that this is who we are."
https://www.buzzfeed.com/bimadewunmi/britain-has-broken-my-heart?
"Until the final days before the referendum, much of the coverage outside of the UK discussed the "Brexit" in economic terms. But particularly for young people in the UK, deciding whether to leave the European Union was a bigger question of national identity, with the "Leave" campaign representing a rejection of immigrants and foreigners and the "Remain" campaign representing a hopeful cosmopolitanism."
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/24/this-comment-perfectly-explains-why-brexit-has-left-the-uks-young-feeling-so-devastated.html
I've had some interesting debates with two of my long time readers, Nanute and Greg. Greg in particular thinks it was a good move as it frees Britain of the EU.
Maybe so, but it might also free Scotland from the UK and reduce the UK to Little England. What we seem to be watching is the dissolution of perhaps both the EU and the UK.
What I don't agree with is this frees up the UK to do better fiscal or monetary policy. Again, the Brits never had the euro so they were not constrained. Their austerity cannot be blamed on Brussels.
Another argument Greg made that I do disagree with is that British youth who voted to stay were tricked by a EU sales pitch of how it's supposed to work.
I don't agree. I think the young folks saw that even if there are some real problems with the status quo, this doesn't make any change from it a great idea.
Again, Hitler was a big change from the Weimar Republic that was obviously a far from prefect regime.
Still Hitler was something of a 'mistake' to say the least.
Are Hitler comparisons over the top? Usually. Normally, I agree you should observe Godwin's Law.
But every once in awhile we have abnormal times.
A lot of the anti trade, anti immigrant hysteria we have now, we had in the 30s.
Arguably, Hitler's economy actually worked pretty well for awhile-the wonders of forced labor are amazing.
But the response of the UK youth demonstrate that the European project is not all bad. It did after all prevent another European World War.
And clearly for the youth, the idea of being a European means something. Here is a young person in the UK:
"Why Britain’s Break-Up With The EU Has Broken My Heart."
"As a child of immigrants, I am deeply ashamed that this is who we are."
https://www.buzzfeed.com/bimadewunmi/britain-has-broken-my-heart?
I feel your pain. When I listen to some of the things my own father has said lately-he's very impressed by Trump and suddenly is watching Fox News-I too am wondering who we are.
"In the end, we chose to leave."
"Do you know what pleurisy is? It’s a condition in which the tissue lining the lungs and chest cavity become inflamed. It makes breathing deeply nigh on impossible because the pain can be blinding. It leaves the sufferer very tender, and forces them to take short breaths in an effort to manage the pain. It’s a disease that reminds me of pale Victorian women, delicate and broken, holding dainty lace handkerchiefs. Several years ago I was hospitalised due to the condition after I almost passed out from the pain at work. The worst pain settled under my left breast, and at its most severe, felt like a vice squeezing at random interludes to remind me of my own mortality."
"It sounds dramatic to say this, but I felt a very similar pain – the same crushing ache, in the same location – in the early hours of Friday morning, when it became clear that the result of the European Union referendum vote was going to be to Leave. Before the pain became an urgent thing, before everything was confirmed, I’d already had an unexpected cry. A leak of confused emotion. Who was I crying for? For myself, for my friends, for many of us of different hues and accents, for all the young people who had voted to Remain. I was crying for my country."
https://www.buzzfeed.com/bimadewunmi/britain-has-broken-my-heart?utm_term=.otgDADWna#.sinLXLdzk
It was among other things an extended middle finger by the old to the young. As far as who in the UK voted Brexit and who didn't, there is the amazing fact that the longer you will likely live, the more enthusiastic you were about Brexit. The longer you have likely to live, the less likely you were to vote for Brexit.
The one thing you can say for the EU is it was cosmopolitan. This empowers the xenophobes who want to keep the wrong people out. Nigel Farage already admitted that the $315 M pounds for the NIH was a campaign lie.
Turns out, that sending everyone back to where they came from actually hurts the NIH.
Greg says he thinks Brexit was the right choice for the wrong reasons. I'm very skeptical that this happens so easily.
When all those who vote Brexit do so for the wrong reasons, I'm skeptical that this adds up the right policy.
So the old folks get their nostalgia and the youth will have to pay for this.
If Labour has any hope they need to put themselves forward as an unambiguously pro EU party as the Liberal Democrats are already doing.
This is the one way to convince the Scottish to stay.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2016/06/just-how-bad-will-brexit-be-and-can-it.html#comment-form
"In the end, we chose to leave."
"Do you know what pleurisy is? It’s a condition in which the tissue lining the lungs and chest cavity become inflamed. It makes breathing deeply nigh on impossible because the pain can be blinding. It leaves the sufferer very tender, and forces them to take short breaths in an effort to manage the pain. It’s a disease that reminds me of pale Victorian women, delicate and broken, holding dainty lace handkerchiefs. Several years ago I was hospitalised due to the condition after I almost passed out from the pain at work. The worst pain settled under my left breast, and at its most severe, felt like a vice squeezing at random interludes to remind me of my own mortality."
"It sounds dramatic to say this, but I felt a very similar pain – the same crushing ache, in the same location – in the early hours of Friday morning, when it became clear that the result of the European Union referendum vote was going to be to Leave. Before the pain became an urgent thing, before everything was confirmed, I’d already had an unexpected cry. A leak of confused emotion. Who was I crying for? For myself, for my friends, for many of us of different hues and accents, for all the young people who had voted to Remain. I was crying for my country."
https://www.buzzfeed.com/bimadewunmi/britain-has-broken-my-heart?utm_term=.otgDADWna#.sinLXLdzk
It was among other things an extended middle finger by the old to the young. As far as who in the UK voted Brexit and who didn't, there is the amazing fact that the longer you will likely live, the more enthusiastic you were about Brexit. The longer you have likely to live, the less likely you were to vote for Brexit.
The one thing you can say for the EU is it was cosmopolitan. This empowers the xenophobes who want to keep the wrong people out. Nigel Farage already admitted that the $315 M pounds for the NIH was a campaign lie.
Turns out, that sending everyone back to where they came from actually hurts the NIH.
Greg says he thinks Brexit was the right choice for the wrong reasons. I'm very skeptical that this happens so easily.
When all those who vote Brexit do so for the wrong reasons, I'm skeptical that this adds up the right policy.
So the old folks get their nostalgia and the youth will have to pay for this.
If Labour has any hope they need to put themselves forward as an unambiguously pro EU party as the Liberal Democrats are already doing.
This is the one way to convince the Scottish to stay.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2016/06/just-how-bad-will-brexit-be-and-can-it.html#comment-form
Not that I haven't wasted enough electrons already but i will try to sum up my position in as complete a manner as I can.
ReplyDeleteI am in complete support of A European Union. I think the current one is cobbled together with many wrong motives and incentives in place. Yes they wanted to avoid physical war with tanks and planes and boots on the ground post WWII but they have just substituted a more insidious war using money and cultural dog whistles to just let the little people fight among themselves for lower paying jobs and fewer "entitlements". The owners were just tired of seeing their properties physically blown up they didn't care that lower class people were dying in the effort (yes that is THE most cynical take possible but tell me... with a straight face... that these bankers and CEOs really do care deeply for all the working class people that have been displaced and all their efforts at policy have been with their best interest in mind at all times)
So we need to rethink how a union works. Not just gets started but how it continues and meets the needs of people in an uncertain world. This needs to happen everywhere btw. And before you dismiss this with the , Yeah its easy to call for change but how do you get it done with the political realities of today, I'll just answer........ what exactly are the political realities of today? Is there only one set of defined realities? Isn't it true that part of the "problem" as many see it is that there in fact isn't A political reality? That there are too many? And in fact its this political uncertainty that has people skittish. Well count me amongst the people then (maybe few) who think a "political reality" that all current PTB feel real secure about might not be something Im going to like.
Also, count me amongst the people who dont give a crap about certainty either. Anyone with too much certainty should not be trusted or followed. The world is uncertain so surround yourself with people who, in times where you might have little, will consider it natural to just help keep you going..... "why would you not do that ?" should be their internal credo. And they have that credo because they know this uncertain world may deal them a bad hand for a while and they will need the others too.
Using our current screwed up system for measuring value and such there will be a lot of room for interpretation as to whether or how much this move "cost" the Brits. Ill ignore most of it because it is based on faulty econ thinking in my view.
I agree with this writer in that regard;
http://www.concertedaction.com/2016/06/25/uk-poorer/
You're never going to have certainly. However, there are risky choices that are irresponsible.
DeleteLike voting for Trump under the assumption he doesn't really mean it.
There are certain threats to POC with a Trump win.
" Yes they wanted to avoid physical war with tanks and planes and boots on the ground post WWII but they have just substituted a more insidious war using money and cultural dog whistles to just let the little people fight among themselves for lower paying jobs and fewer "entitlements". The owners were just tired of seeing their properties physically blown up they didn't care that lower class people were dying in the effort (yes that is THE most cynical take possible but tell me... with a straight face... that these bankers and CEOs really do care deeply for all the working class people that have been displaced and all their efforts at policy have been with their best interest in mind at all times)"
ReplyDeleteI don't think you can go as far as saying that this is more insidious war than physical war. 110 million were killed in WWII and about 60 million in WW I.
To stop that is a big accomplishment-regardless of what the motivations were.
Motivations are always complex. You can have social concerns and personal concerns intertwined.
I agree that the euro system has been a disaster-though not the EU. That's been a mixed bag of positives and negatives.
But even the misery of euro austerity can't compare to 110 million dead. There is a hierarchy of needs.
Physical safety from war is higher even than economic security
What Im saying Mike is that whats needed to be a true union is not JUST an agreement, written or unwritten, to NOT invade you. Its like me claiming we are good friends on the basis that I have never killed anyone in your family and that I dont intend to. If all you are interested is avoiding armed conflict without some recognition of the things which lead to armed conflict you aren't really lessening the likelihood of conflict.
DeleteI will argue that having a small band of technocrats who simply are interested in "monetary" unions as a means to quell dissent amongst a place the size and diversity of the Eurozone are sowing the seeds of war down the road. Monetary policy doesn't believe in distribution affects. Every monetarist economist I know refuses to acknowledge some redistribution of wealth is necessary in todays world. They either 1) say the whiners aren't as bad off as they claim or 2) say getting monetary policy right, getting the right amount of money in the economy or keeping NGDP on target will take care of the distribution affects all by itself. Fiscal policy can only hurt according to them. I say ignore inequality at your peril. It is taking us down a dangerous road. People dont like it when it looks like others are getting waaaaay more than they deserve.
"I don't think you can go as far as saying that this is more insidious war than physical war."
By definition its more insidious, just because the death toll hasn't reached the level of physical war doesn't mean its less insidious. It is causing harm in ways that aren't evident at first blush ....i.e insidious
"Physical safety from war is higher even than economic security"
Sure, but high levels of economic insecurity/inequality lead people to do risky things like start wars...... or abandon previous agreements.
One good thing that has come from people having real assets that they own all over the globe is that they are less likely to support physical war in a place where it might destroy something of theirs. This was certainly less true in the 1940s compared to today.