As expected, the GOP is creaming it's panties today. The one thing about they certainly are good for is gloating and spiking the ball. Listen to Reince Priebus:
"The GOP victory in Wisconsin's gubernatorial recall election was an "absolute disaster for President Obama" and represents a clear sign of Republican momentum heading into the fall presidential election campaign, Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus argues in a memo set for release Wednesday"
http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/
"This race should draw a sharp contrast in the eyes of voters. On the Republican side stood Scott Walker--a man who kept his 2010 campaign promises and delivered. He balanced the budget, got Wisconsinites back to work, and put government back on the side of the people. It's certainly a far cry from what President Obama is offering."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/
I too got some Repug in here last night gloating. Typically he had to be anonymous:
"Listening now to Barrett conceding. (Smile) You did not complain when Obama outspent McCain by hundreds of millions of dollars. I guess it was OK in that case. The day of the liberal has come, and soon it will be gone, forever I hope. You can uncross your fingers anytime now."
Anonymous just reminds me why I'm a Republican Hater.
http://diaryofarepublicanhater.blogspot.com/2012/06/its-nail-biting-time-in-wisconsins.html?showComment=1338976414855#c5970870307323592769
The Nephew has a post about another smug Repug over at Daily Kos. He called his post "I'm Fucking Pissed."
"I'm fucking pissed, and I'm not going to take it anymore. I have just sat down and shut up my whole life until I'm backed into a corner, and I feel like I am being backed into a corner now. I feel like I've sat back and watched the Tea Party just freaking take over state after state. States like Wisconsin, where there are so many Democrats are being taken over by freaking tea baggers.
I sit back and watch people like Moe Lane from the tea party website, RedState, say this:
"I would like to offer these words of comfort. When you progressive/liberal/Democratic activists look back on your quest to begin the Wisconsin recall movement, I want you to appreciate the amazing amount of work that you spent on it. You called. You networked. You wrote letters and blog posts. You contributed to opposition groups. You reached out, and found people just like you, and you banded together to fight. You marched, and you stormed the state capital, and you were arrested. And you kept going, and calling, and struggling, and you put your time, your money, and every atom of your being on the line. For some of you, this was your finest moment. You fought for this. You fought so hard for this."
"Oddly enough, I didn’t do any of that, but I won anyway. That’s because you suck, and I don’t.
Well, I didn’t say that they were words of comfort for you."
Of this trifling snark Nephew says:
"Well you know what Moe? YOU FUCKING SUCK. You are the exact epitome of the Republican mindset in this country today. You want yours at the expense of everybody else's. Oh, and when you get yours you fucking laugh in our faces. You haven't won shit without pouring millions of dollars into it first. Mitt Romney is a fine example of a Republican. He can't win without millions upon millions of dollars to tear down people. Well I am going to fucking stand up right now and say NO MORE."
"NO MORE OF THIS SHIT. Tomorrow morning, I am going to call/visit/stalk/whatever I have to do to volunteer for President Obama and other Democrats in North Carolina. I felt demoralized until I read that comment from Moe Lane. Not anymore. Instead, I say fuck it. If I lose every damn fight for the rest of my life, at least I will die trying."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/06/1097747/-I-m-F-cking-Pissed
Good that's the right emotion not despair or demoralization. If listening to these guys doesn't make you mad then you're part of the problem. It's like what I said to Mr. Anonymous Snark last night
"Anon you're hillarious. You GOPers are never happy unless you think you're causing people pain. That's why you are so happy when someone's pension that they've contributed to for years gets cut. Gives you a big aold hardon. So irght now you're so proud of your little self. That you are so pompous only reinforces why the war is not over-it won't be over ever until people like you are defeated once and for all.
"I swear to you Anon I get up in the monring for the sole purpose of knocking you to the ground."
"This enjoyment of the pain of others is why your GOP opposes the Violence Against Women act in the Senate. In reality you guys get off on beating women too. The pro violence against women party."
""So enjoy your snarky little coments Anon. Cause you will get what's coming to you, I promise."
http://diaryofarepublicanhater.blogspot.com/2012/06/its-nail-biting-time-in-wisconsins.html?showComment=1338976414855#c5970870307323592769
The Nephew is right as well that the mindset of these smug little gnomes is all too typical of the Republican mindset. Unfortunately this small minded, smug attitude is widely shared in America. How else do you explain all those votes for Walker?
It was also inevitable that the GOP will claim this validates them and is a bad omen for Obama come November.
"From RNC spokeswoman Kirsten Kukowski on Scott Walker's projected win in the recall election in Wisconsin:
"After Obama surrogates Debbie WassermanRNC is ready to transition from our efforts to help Scott Walker into beating President Obama in Wisconsin in November."
http://www.politico.com/politico44/whiteboard/2012/6/RNC__Walker_win_is_an_Obama_rebuke.html
This is exactly why I had argued yesterday that Obama failed by not going to Wisconsin for Barrett. He probably didn't go because he thought it likely that Barrett would lose and then there'd be egg all over his face. But by not going there is anyway. So he should have gone as it may have given Barrett a shot in the arm.
It's not just Obama, the DGA just didn't go after this the way the RGA did. Being outspent by as much as 20 to 1 has it's disadvantages it turns out.
The one positive is that the Democrats actually may have won back the state senate.
"Gov. Scott Walker, Lt. Gov. Rebecca Kleefisch and three Republican state senators who were targeted in recall campaigns beat back their challengers last night, giving Republicans a near-total sweep of the races on the ballot."
"But in a fourth state Senate race, between former Democratic Sen. John Lehman and sitting GOP Sen. Van Wanggaard, the Democrat currently holds a 779-vote lead over the incumbent. If that margin holds, it'll flip the balance of power in the chamber from a one-vote Republican majority to a one-vote Democratic majority."
"Wanggaard's campaign isn't throwing in the towel yet, and the Journal-Sentinel quotes his campaign manager saying his team will "thoroughly examine the election and its results and act accordingly once we have all of the information." So it's too soon to say the election is over and Democrats have won
http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/
This is why despite all the spiking the ball, it's hard to say the GOP has really won. They are going to spin it that way of course. And you do hear a lot of talk now that somehow a recall is illegitimate that it should only be used in cases of corruption. Of course there is no justification for this idea and it's just one more attempt to cut back on our constitutionally protected rights as voters. If it's only legitimate in a case of corruption then why does the constitution give you the right to recall public officials for other reasons than corruption?
Of course, ironically enough. Walker also stands accused of major public corruption-ergo, his legal defense fund.
What's conveniently forgotten is that the Democrats have won lots of recall victories as well including as noted, the biggest win of all was the defeat of the anti collective bargaining law in Ohio last November. After a Michigan GOP state legislator got recalled Republican Gov. Rick Snyder asked fellow state Republicans not to pursue any Right to Work legislation.
And the recall process as also noted above may give the Democrats control of the state senate. So in truth it has been considerably more successful than you're hearing. It just so happens that this was the highest profile race. But if the Democrats do get a senate majority together with the corruption charges against Walker-for which he could be forced out of office anyway-his wings may be clipped going forward anyway.
Hopefully most Democrats will feel as The Nephew and I do and rather than this taking the fight out of them will motivate them to contest the GOP anti union agenda at every turn.
I find the statement "GOP is creaming it's panties today" both ironic and offensive. Wouldn't a fellow self-proclaimed liberal use a figure of speech that doesn't have a mysogynistic connotation?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous give it up. I know you're not a liberal.
ReplyDeleteYou guys have lost plenty as well-like the anti collective bargaining law last November or that Michigain GOP legislator. Even Rick Snyder doesn't think they should do any more right to work stuff.
And now the Walker may have lost the state senate. Plz is that's a victory you're too easily pleased.
Sax,
ReplyDeleteThis will likely go over your head or through your ears or whatever, but I'll always try.
Your side, the left, progressives what have you, need to RETHINK your MO for achieving your goals.
I say this not as a disinterested observer, but as a tactician who has annoying bitches on my own side that I can let go of, once you people finally get over some basic shit.
1. Public employees cannot earn more than the private sector and they must deliver the productivity gains that the private sector delivers YOY.
This means lots of job turnover, zero seniority rules, no defined pensions etc. but it also means working from home and more opportunities for the truly talented.
2. Govt. spending generally has to stay at 19% of GDP (where it has been for 70 years no matter what the tax rates).
But this is easy because once we make the changes in #1, we can afford the kind of safety net that YOU WANT.
3. My Guaranteed Income plan combined with #1, means that you can actually EXTEND the quality of life stuff - clean parks and more mass transit, nicer living conditions for the poor, greater class mobility, etc.
My system truly benefits the entrepreneurs who GREW UP POOR because they have their hands in the labor pool, half the people they know can be hired at a discount.
4. We should favor a progressive consumption tax to get as much of that 19% as possible, for reasons that are obvious.
-----
Now after guys like me get those, along with NGDPLT, overnight we can throw Rick Santorum's America under the bus.
We can chase down crony capitalists and Wall Streeters with abandon.
But, doing the above won't happen until we are 100% sure that we have forever taught America that government comes second - both her employees and her leaders.
You have to let the SMB capitalists arrest try and hang the crony capitalists for being TOO CLOSE to govt... because that is the BAD THING, and the SMB capitalists are the A Power.
My guarantee is essentially that we 100% have to make life better for the poorest and weakest, while we systematically root out all forms of cronyism and rent seeking in both public and private markets.
-----
Sax, until your side lets go of the unholy alliance between Blue State Fortune 1000 1%'s and the government teat that they both supprt and get support from...
Your deeper progressive desires of fairness and personal dignity are going to get crushed by PISSED OFF Tea Partiers who demand to be the big fish in their own little pond.
They aren't the 1%, they are A power, like the asshole of the body, that can clench up and ruin everything for everyone - they are 35% of America - they own their house, they own all the guns, they are 4-5X richer than the 1% and they vote ALL THE TIME.
They want nice parks, they want clean buses, and cheap bus fairs, and they don't want to wait in line at a DMV in the age of the Internet, they don't care about the post office, they don't mind paying the lions share of that 19%, but they are NOT going to let public employees WHO THEY PAY FOR live amongst them and be in charge.
It isn't that hard to understand, if you try.
Yes, a particularly annoying habit of modern rethugs is their inability to "do nuance". Every event that goes their way leads to proclamations of the end of liberalism or 50 years of dominance. They are really such weak minded people, constantly needing validation, that they are sore losers and over zealous winners. They are like the DB whos been getting torched for three quarters and when he makes an INT in the 4th qtr stands over the receiver and points, nods his head and beats his chest.
ReplyDeleteBut lets look at who has really been wasting their political money the last century. The conservative movement fought womens rights tooth and nail....... LOST! Civil rights they killed and spent out the wazzoo............ LOST! Roe vs Wade......... been losing for years.
Gay rights...... on their way to big defeat in a few years. The right spends massively on politics because that all they have. Their life IS politics. They need big religion and media help to get there message out and stir up voters but they will LOSE IN THE END...... because reality has a left wing progressive bias. The world progresses, the world will get off oil and drill baby drill will be just a joke. Sure it sucks that Walker held his job but the truth is a lot of people democrats and republican dont even like the idea of recalling a guy. They feel he should get to serve his term unless he commits a crime.......... which interestingly enough we are about to find out that Walker likely HAS committed a crime... quite a few crimes.
Conseravtism will always lose to progress. No matter how much money they spend.
With those kind of mysogynistic characterizations you sound more like a conservative than any liberal I've ever read.
ReplyDelete"Conseravtism will always lose to progress. No matter how much money they spend."
ReplyDeleteGood way to look at it Greg. It's like what Clarence Darrow once said about being on the Right Side of History. These are batttles. In the immediate battles the Right always seems to be winning but taking the longer view it's different.
Morgan-interesting approach you have I'll give you that much. I'm not a convert yet-I don't convert to anything easy- but I'm listening.
ReplyDeleteAnon are you stalking me? How conservative of you just like you protect abusive husbands against their wives by notifying them if their wife complains to them.
ReplyDeleteYou and I have talked so much already Anon I feel like we're family-what's your name again?
Was that you on New Monetarist last night too? LOL
Warstler
ReplyDeleteWhen you start off like this;
"Sax
This will likely go over your head or through your ears or whatever, but I'll always try."
Your just being a dick
"Your side, the left, progressives what have you, need to RETHINK your MO for achieving your goals."
CONCERN TROLL MUCH?
"1. Public employees cannot earn more than the private sector and they must deliver the productivity gains that the private sector delivers YOY."
Your answer is ...of course..... to cut public sector workers packages.... because you can. Thats called bullying Why not instead insist that private businesses that cant meet or exceed the standards set by the public sector go pound sand. Owning a private business should not be a license to own someone and pay them a substandard wage just because you CAN.
" Govt. spending generally has to stay at 19% of GDP (where it has been for 70 years no matter what the tax rates)."
Sorry this wont work because govt sets their budgets before they know what GDP will be for a given cycle. And you cant go off last cycle either. No, Govts need to make contracts with people to do the things they need done, pay them a fair wage with benefits and simply fund it. If it turns out that happens to be 16% of GDP or 25% of GDP....... who the fuck cares.
"My guarantee is essentially that we 100% have to make life better for the poorest and weakest, while we systematically root out all forms of cronyism and rent seeking in both public and private markets."
Nice to sound like you give a shit about the "poorest and the weakest" but if you really cared about them, you'd give them a chance to be middle class workers by insisting that bosses pay their workers well FIRST. Instead of attacking public sector workers who make up about 15% of the income in this country why not attack the rapacious habits of the 1% who make up about 70% of the income in this country. Again we are not where we are today because too many Americans made $45,000 /yr and had decent benefits we are here because the 1% has over the last 30 years made us go into debt to live our lifestyle instead of paying the wages our increased productivity deserved. You are trying to solve the non problem, the thing that Tea Partiers dont like but which is NOT the root cause of their angst.
-----
"Your deeper progressive desires of fairness and personal dignity are going to get crushed by PISSED OFF Tea Partiers who demand to be the big fish in their own little pond."
And if they get the things they are calling for they will have NO ECONOMY around them because they are ignorant of how an economy works..... being mostly hard money ideologues.
'They want nice parks, they want clean buses, and cheap bus fairs, and they don't want to wait in line at a DMV in the age of the Internet, they don't care about the post office, they don't mind paying the lions share of that 19%, but they are NOT going to let public employees WHO THEY PAY FOR live amongst them and be in charge"
See the whole notion that "we pay for these people" is repugnant to its core. Guess what we pay for Exxons CEOs bonuses too! We pay for everything, the consumer does, No one has any income if we dont go out and buy stuff. We all pay for EVERYTHING! You are too busy being owned by god knows who and want to fight these public versus private employee battles.
There needs to be discussions about how much someone should get paid to be a teacher and a garbage man and a prison guard but it is not those people who are breaking us. I dont find most public sector to be over paid but most private sector to be underpaid
" Public employees cannot earn more than the private sector and they must deliver the productivity gains that the private sector delivers YOY."
ReplyDeleteAnother point Greg is that productivity can be measured in differnt ways.
For instance don't know if he read it or not but I wrote this post for Morgan the other day.
It showed how since the public buses got taken over here in Nassau the service quality has come down.
http://diaryofarepublicanhater.blogspot.com/2012/06/morgan-warsterl-market-efficiency-and.html
The privateized bus service is more "efficient" in that it pays lower wages, but as it's quality of service is poor in net, Nassau county loses.
Conservatism is not opposed to "progress" it is opposed to increased status and power for those people that don't make and sell things for a living.
ReplyDeleteConservatives KNOW that ALL people (capitalists, public employees, and elected officials) are self-interested rent seekers.
As such, they WANT in their hearts a system that is structured from the get-go to make centralized power impossible - see the Constitution.
Ask yourselves how much WAR and DEATH the current progressive movement inflicts on the world... I'm not kidding.
Just be honest about these two facts:
1. Many conservatives only support more GUNS because they do not want your side to get more BUTTER.
As such, if you are honest about things, if you really wanted to have less WAR and DEATH, you;d give conservatives a real choice.
You'd say, if we have less defense spending, every single dollar of it will go to reducing upper income tax brackets.
HOLY SHIT! Suddenly the choice is GUN or TAXES, and human greed kicks in...
But your side demands more BUTTER, so the other side chooses GUNS.
2. The system of #1, means that even Obama / Clinton needs to "appear strong" and suddenly we have unending war.
My point is don't blame conservatives for being too Pro-Gun, the problem arises because your side is to Pro-Butter.
Conservatives are reacting to progressive action, you should be smarter about what you are provoking.
Greg, I don't concern troll. I truly want to see govt. automated, so that it has the lowest possible number of public employees to deliver the maximum amount of:
ReplyDelete1. Guaranteed Income we can provide to the unemployed.
2. $ per student in a 100% choice edu system.
3. $ per uninsured we can provide in a low-end out of patent universal public option
I view govt. as (mobile) online portal for distributing atomic wealth and digital goods (information, education and entertainment) to the have-nots from the haves with the least amount of friction and greatest amount of value recovery possible.
I'm dangerous to you because I want to run govt. the way Amazon and Google operate, delivering more for less every year.
There's no place for 450K postal workers or most school teachers or 1500 Soc Sec offices (or 30K telereps) or DMVs or most court houses and records offices.
There WILL BE far fewer public employees who make A LOT more money.
They will be digitally audited (like FBI agents) in order to reduce fraud.
But many of them will be able to work from home, or on vacation, or where ever they are on the planet.
Look Greg, don't be upset that we have a strong historical record that says no matter what the atx rates, we are retarded if we don't keep our spending at 19% ofGDP.
Since wehave a global budget, we want to get as much economic growth as possible and that INCLUDES running the government in a way that SPEEDS UP commerce, not slows it down.
GOVT. should be looking for ways to reduce the number of hours every American spends dealing with govt.
It should be giving people a $1 if they first report a pothole and selling you a time stamped fishing license on your phone.
It should do both things to reduce both costs on system management and $ savings, but MAINLY it should do it so that PEOPLE LIKE GOVT.
Having a bunch of "good paying jobs" that rely on me having to drive to and wait in line at the DMV or subsidizes junk mailers is no less an external cost than pollution. Hell, it CAUSES POLLUTION.
Anyhoo, once you get over that one little thing - 19%, any good progressive should be focused on:
1. getting the poorest and weakest the best deal possible.
2. speeding up govt. so it can speed up the economy.
"Conservatism is not opposed to "progress" it is opposed to increased status and power for those people that don't make and sell things for a living."
ReplyDeleteOk Morgan,let's say for argument's sake we acceot your argument. How do you answer Greg's point that
"But lets look at who has really been wasting their political money the last century. The conservative movement fought womens rights tooth and nail....... LOST! Civil rights they killed and spent out the wazzoo............ LOST! Roe vs Wade......... been losing for years.
Gay rights...... on their way to big defeat in a few years. The right spends massively on politics because that all they have. Their life IS politics. They need big religion and media help to get there message out and stir up voters but they will LOSE IN THE END...... because reality has a left wing progressive bias"
See Morgan, and I'll be honest with you I do like you which is suprising as I usually hate Righties and I think that you do have some novel ways of looking at stuff and maybe your heart is even in sort of in the right place a little.
Here I think Greg makes a powerful case. Hasn't conservatism always been opposed to civil rights for blacks, for women, for gays, for non Christain white men?
Here we're talking history-obviouly conservatism wasn't always as it is now concentrated more in the Republican party. It used to be more regionally divided.
I think that's a philosophical and historical point but can you honestly answer that?
Can conservatism really claim to desire the maximum self-empowerment for the maximum number of people? Even today you got someone like Charle Murray writing books that "suggest" that black people don't have the mental capacity to make it and so why waste government money on them.
Again this is a historical point about conservatism.
Now as to your idea about trading guns for butter-show me the GOPer propsing it and we'll talk.
ReplyDeleteMuch of what you say is interesting. I give you the GI-I still don't think it's soifferent from the MMTers JG but anyway-is thought provoking, though for me we'd have to talk more about that before I bite.
Now I say I think you're heart is in the right place-much as I'm slow to credit any conservative of even being capable of empathy-if you mean what you say here-and it's not just concern trolling as you say it isn't then we might have more to talk about:
"They want nice parks, they want clean buses, and cheap bus fairs, and they don't want to wait in line at a DMV in the age of the Internet, they don't care about the post office, they don't mind paying the lions share of that 19%, but they are NOT going to let public employees WHO THEY PAY FOR live amongst them and be in charge."
Lots of that sounds great-I wrote that piece just for you about how the Nassau bus has gone private and now they have disabled people waiting 3 hours so they can be more "efficient."
When you say this-if you aren't conern trolling about-we're on the same page:
"getting the poorest and weakest the best deal possible."
Concern trolling just means you feign sympathy or interest in someting-in this case the desires and wants of progressvies-when you really don't have any.
The one issue I could discuss with any conservative is the progressive consumption tax. While I was real skeptical when Scott used to talk about it I've now realized that it could be workable-maybe.
As long as it's not a sales tax-which for me is a non starter. But a consumption tax that enabled nonrich people to see their payroll taxes go way down or even going away-without eliminating SS and Medicare-I would defintely be interested in discussing.
I will say this though again-"speeding up govt. so it can speed up the economy"
Look if government can be sped up in some way that's one thing. But as my other post I wrote just for you-your name in it-linked above-where I talked about how the private company isn't always more efficent than the govenrment. The government did a better job with the local bus line than the privaet company has at least so far.
If you are honest then seriously take to heart what I am saying as well. I'm always interested in a meeting of the minds. I do feel like maybe you're real-in some ways more real than Scott not that I don't like hime.
But I do think he concern trolls a lot. In a way he's smart. Even Miltion Fridman though you say had a different style than Sumner actually would always praise Keynes relentlessly and even at one time said "we are all Keynesians now" before of course he liquidated Keynesians at least of a generation.
Oh yeah, Morgan one other point. You talk about making government efficient and not forcing people to wait forever on a DMV line?
ReplyDeleteI don't know where you live but it's very quick and painless here in NY now a days-and in Mass too. It used to be that you would have to wait on lines that went around the building.
Not any more and it's been done by that government that you think is so inefficent.
Sax, your license should exist on your phone and if you have to take a test it should at a computer being watched by your webcam, and if you have to take a driving test someone should show up at your house in GPS and camera outfitted car and give you the test.
ReplyDeleteALL those buildings should be sold, and ht employees fired.
Nothing Greg says matters to me at all. I have more friends in the LGBT community than you do - hell, I want to give them Presidents Day as their national holiday (for Lincoln) because gays have $ and that weekend is big for travel industry and to have a good holiday you need a commercial entity to really get behind it.
Dude, listen to me, my heart isn't in right place, thats easy, anyone can do that - the HARD THING is being able to invent new workable coalitions - and doing that REQUIRES grasping in both hands REALITY.
Here's Ezra:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/wisconsin-recall-shows-labor-isnt-coming-back-so-whats-next-wonkbook/2012/06/06/gJQAhxPNIV_blog.html
All he's got for you is the Dems are going to have to suck more Fortune 1000 dick.
That's not even close to compelling.
I say GO STATES RIGHTS.
OFFER the Tea Party a deal where DC shrinks / loses real power and the states keep 50% of their income taxes.
The rich Blue States keep their money, and if you can keep running California or New York running with FAR MORE $, you'll get to force the poor little Red States to deal with their angry populations.
Of course, what will happen is poor states will adopt my completely automated government system much faster.
But AT LEAST play it out, don't run off and kiss Fortune 1000 ass.
----
Look dude, pretty soon gays are off the table - they'll be rich guys who want to keep their tax dollars too.
After that it really isn't about civil rights, it is about education, healthcare, etc.
And that shit is far more likely to work right if it is run like Amazon.
Stop worrying about the $9 per hour Amazon jobs, and focus on the poor people getting the shit they need delivered just in time.
I offered you a deal-let's talk consumption tax-for argument sake. But see that's what I look for-who's willing to make a deal. You don't see too concerned with it.
ReplyDelete"Sax, your license should exist on your phone and if you have to take a test it should at a computer being watched by your webcam, and if you have to take a driving test someone should show up at your house in GPS and camera outfitted car and give you the test."
See I think you show your time-you are still in spirit, a child of the 90s. Which is cool, the 90s were great times. What've we've had since has sucked royally...
But listen I'm a techophile myself but you may be a little to optimistic even for me. It's all back to productivity. It goes back to the 90s when they thought everything could be done over the interent-and lots is. But there are some things that they realized just aren't economical. You still want to return to March 5, 2000 the day before the Nasdaq imploded.
Which is not a bad thought. Just think you're maybe a little utopian about some things.
If you do however want to go in that direction-and I generally like it,though some things can't be done through net, how about voting?
Again you're guys-the GOPers have fought like mad to stop online voting. If it weren't for GOP opposition we could have that tomorrow. Why don't they want it? It would help Democrats.
Actually my point about the social issues wasnt even the best case for what the left has accomplished in America the last 100 years. The fact that you have a 40 hr work week and get paid overtime in most places. Women getting paid time off to have children. Paid vacation. The right to organize (under threat but still in place). These have done more for the American middle class and hence the entrepeneur than anything the right could ever take credit for. And these were things that were fought with huge money from right wing backers.
ReplyDelete"Nothing Greg says matters to me at all"
......snifff.... sniff Gosh I sit up all night worrying about what you say Morgie boy
Actually a lot of what you say Morgan is interesting and probably would be supported by most on the left. A faster more efficient govt? Sure ( I already get my license renewed on line) Lets automate all that can be automated but just as in manufacturing and farming the autpmation leaves a lot of people with nothing to do......hence ....GI.....I like many aspects of your GI but I just know coming from you it likely would be like an exploding cigar if done exactly as you would like it.
Im glad to know by the way that since YOU have a lot of gay friends that means movement conservatism isnt mostly about just oppressing people they dont like.
The states rights stuff is not progress. Breaking into fifty little countries trying to share a currency makes us more like the EU...... no thanks. Not that there arent things states shouldnt left to do but the whole "states rights" movement takes it too far in my view. We are a UNION, not a loose collection of individual states.
"don't run off and kiss Fortune 1000 ass."
I agree 1000 percent here. Theres really only room for two lips and the GOP is already there, skin grafted to it.
See in the gay thing that's a problem too. Maybe you personally dont hate gays but the GOP does. It tries to court the votes of those who do.
ReplyDeleteThat's why Romney had to fire Grenell. And that Right wing church guy who made him do it laughed in his face too. He was like "if Romney can't even stand up to a little pastor on the radio like me how does he stand up to Iran?"
The party is still fighting women on the right ot choose. Even birth control is still an issue. So that is still a problem for the GOP.
And it will hurt them at the polls. A lot of Log Cabin guys are tired of it expecailly after Grenell
1. Romney did not fire Grenell. I doubt very much Grenell wanted to be a public figure. And there's NO way it would not happen to him. Romney will have an out Cabinet member, member of staff etc. it is really quite boring.
ReplyDelete2. Romney will carry more than McCain's 27% of gay vote. Didn'tcha see the Mormons at the parade?
3. How many times must I say this.. if you are a high earner and you feel like you have to vote for the high tax party, you are not equal.
4. The story of gay acceptance speaks very well of how quickly people with DIFFERING political goals (lower taxes less government) STILL adopt what is right mindset.
It is no less interesting than Dems voting against unions.
5.I continue to blame GOVT. for the gay rights problem. One word shouldn't ever mean two things, not when it matters.
Marriage for many people is a purely religious thing between god (and the church community) and man. For others it was a contract between families, and the passing of land rights and titelage etc.
Govt. wanted to establish authority and power and just like is established a BANK to issue debt, it wanted to preside over "marriage" to do what other official things did.
So what to some secular people is a legal social contract thing is to other people the fear of being forced to let men in assless chaps stand at the front of their church under their idolatry and be sanctified.
AND EVEN THAT was very quickly overcome.
Gays are natural Republicans. Just give them time.
"Romney did not fire Grenell. I doubt very much Grenell wanted to be a public figure."
ReplyDeleteI know what's the offical view. However you know as well as I do that there are ways of "encouraging" someone to quit. He wasn't being included in policy discussions.
You don't deny that Right wing social groups wanted him out and that that pastor guy bragged about making Romney drop Grenell?
I don't now how you know Grenell wouldn't want a public role. Grenell is old hat-he served high up in W. Bush's State Department. He was the liason to Mexico or something. So he seemed confortable with a public role and Bush was comfortable with him. Romney is actually more socialy conservative than W amazingly enough.
It's because Romney is not trusted by the social conservatives so he has to overdo it.
As to gay marriage that looks like the futre. Look I wasn't even for it until NY Republicans started supporting it-I was like Obama was just for civil unions.
But I reasoned obviously I can't be to the Right of NY Republicans so I finally finisehd "evolving."
Right now the GOP still at least is the party of those who don't like gay people and that stands to hurt them. Obmaa coming out for gay marriage by now was a no brainer.
Even now the average gay person knows the GOP doesn't want them. You thnk they're natural republicans cause they're mostly rich...
But one thing your admittedly often interesting polical calculations don't factor in is people don't always vote their economic interests. The Jews in the same vein you could argue are natural Republicans-they're usually rich, upwardly mobile, educated..
But they vote their social conscience not their pocketbook.
Gay people though certainly will be wary of the GOP until your party can go as far as not thinking they are sort of moral lepers. I don't say that's your personal view but those who hold that view vote GOP.
And the GOP knows this and is reluctant to alienate these people too much. It's hard to tell anyone "I don't want your vote.'
The only way you could think of this is if you think it will gain you more of someone elses vote.
And we haven't even started on teh Hispanics who are really going to hurt the GOP.
Romney's message to them is: why don't you go ahead and self-deport?
Conservatives, being anti collectivist, are naturally going to try and shrink their tent. And once in the tent one needs to take oaths and all kinds of bullshit to stay in the club. Always looking to find whos in and whos out because they (like Morgan) think everyone is simply motivated by a drive to win (social darwinists), conservatives always start to eat their own at some point. It is by nature a self limiting mind set. It cannot reach beyond a certain level in a society because it WANTS to be exclusive. It needs to be exclusive.
ReplyDeleteThe gays and the hispanics and everyone else will figure this out once they are close to being "in".