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Monday, February 23, 2015

Stephen Williamson vs. Laurence Mishin on Raising Interest Rates

     I wrote previously that Wall Street wants the Fed to raise interest rates. 

     "Over the past three months, businesses have added more than 1 million jobs, according to upwardly revised numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Though still anemic by historical standards—growth was close to 4 percent the last time the unemployment rate was this low, in mid-2008—wages rose month over month at a faster pace than anytime during the post-financial crisis recovery."

    "While the numbers generated mostly applause on Wall Street, they also raised another question: When will the Federal Reserve stop acting like the economy is in crisis?"

     http://diaryofarepublicanhater.blogspot.com/2015/02/if-wall-street-has-its-way-stephen.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DiaryOfARepublicanHater+%28Diary+of+a+Republican+Hater%29
    
     Meanwhile, Stephen Williamson thinks we can actually improve the economy via interest rate hikes-or at least raise the inflation rate which ostensibly would raise AD which improves the economy. 

    "If I think about policy in terms of pegging a short-term nominal interest rate, I understand that, if the nominal interest rate goes down, and stays there, that the short run effect is more inflation (that’s the liquidity effect at work), but in the long run the Fisher effect takes over, and inflation actually goes down. Again, the liquidity effect ultimately dissipates. So, suppose we have been at the ZLB for a long time. The liquidity effect has dissipated, and the inflation rate is too low. How do I get the inflation rate up? I certainly can’t rely on a short-run liquidity effect, as the nominal interest rate can’t go down. There’s nowhere to go but up, and to rely on the long-run Fisher effect to take over ultimately. Of course, you may have to bear the effects of even lower inflation in the short run because of the liquidity effect."

   Mainstream New Keynesian types mostly don't know what to make of SW

   https://longandvariable.wordpress.com/2015/01/31/did-john-taylor-get-us-stuck-at-the-zlb/

   Mishin on the other hand is clearly in the ultra 'dove' camp on the Fed. 

    "The most important economic policy decisions being made about job growth in the next few years are those of the Federal Reserve Board as it determines the scale and pace at which it raises interest rates. Let’s be clear that the decision to raise interest rates is a decision to slow the economy and weaken job and wage growth. There are many false concerns about accelerating wage growth and exploding inflation based on the mistaken sense that we are at or near full employment. Policymakers should not seek to slow the economy until wage growth is comfortably running at the 3.5 to 4.0 percent rate, the wage growth consistent with a 2 percent inflation target (since trend productivity is 1.5 to 2.0 percent, wage growth 2 percentage points faster than this yields rising unit labor costs, and therefore inflation, of 2 percent). The key danger is slowing the economy too soon rather than too late."

     http://www.epi.org/publication/policies-that-do-and-do-not-address-the-challenges-of-raising-wages-and-creating-jobs/

     So is Janet Yellen closer to SW, to Wall Street, or to Mishel? 

     P.S. Mishin also points out that we still have some room till we get back even to the 2007 pre-recession level. 

     "The good news is that 246,000 jobs were created on average each month in 2014, faster than any year in the last recovery and since 2000. This job growth lowered unemployment to 5.6 percent in December. Unfortunately, we still have far to go before we recover from the financial crisis of 2008 and the recession that started after December 2007. Specifically, the Great Recession and its aftermath have left us with a jobs shortfall of 5.6 million—that’s the number of jobs needed to keep up with growth in the potential labor force since 2007—and current job creation rates will get us to pre-recession labor market health in August 2016.1 And even attaining this pre Great Recession labor market health is an insufficiently ambitious final goal – instead we should strive to reach genuine full employment with roughly 4 percent unemployment. Much is at stake.2 If we do not attain robust full employment then many communities, particularly those of color, will be left out of the recovery. Moreover, under current policy conditions significant wage growth for the vast majority may only occur when we achieve much lower unemployment than we now have.

     

      

     

22 comments:

  1. Interestingly, this has been Moslers position as well. Lowering interest rates lowers the incomes generated from bonds and anything which lowers incomes becomes deflationary. Yes this has been somewhat offset by gains in stock prices but stock prices cannot make up for all the income losses from bonds. One reason is that if you want to realize your income gains from stock price increases you have to sell your stocks...... which puts downward pressure on stock prices.

    What is more interesting to me is how this chatter really puts the lie to the whole bond vigilante notion. We have been told for years that bond prices are market determined, that govts need to prove themselves worthy in order fund their activity via bond markets. So why don't we already have skyrocketing interest rates? Obviously bond holders are itching for them. If in fact the govt had to go hat in hand to wealthy savers to finance their programs there is no doubt they would be demanding more than a 2-3% for 30 years of investment. But the fact is they don't get to demand anything in the end. They take what they are given. The pressure they put on the Fed and treasury is simple gum flapping through oped pages in financial sections of newspapers. Screeching for the Fed to raise their rates is certainly pressure, but its not a market pressure as is surmised, its a political pressure.

    I hope we never hear talk of bond vigilantes in the US again........ fat chance though.

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  2. What I never get is since the bond vigilantes haven't shown up-even in Japan which has a really high proportion of debt to GDP-why Sumner always says we should do monetary policy as we don't have to be saddled with public debt.

    As Delong, Krugman, and many others have pointed out with low interest rates like these this would have been the time to increase govt debt.

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  3. Regarding what Mosler is saying I'm a little perplexed. It's not that I'm saying he is wrong-or right; or that I'm saying Stephen Williamson is wrong or right.

    However, even if bondholders prefer higher rates as it gets them yield don't raising rates lower income in other areas by tamping down on investment and borrowing?

    High rates are good for bondholders but not good for borrowers and when you increase the debt burden on borrowers you reduce their income and so their consumption.

    To me the question over interest rates is not simple as that in either raising or lowering them there are income gains and losses.

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  4. Personally I say its time to stop calling it govt debt. Its not something they borrowed. Its not something they had to beg to get from someone else. If Congress approves a spending bill the spending gets done........ period.

    I didn't mean to suggest that Mosler feels that low interest rates are overall or necessarily net deflationary, just that when people refer to low interest rates as inflationary he cautions that there is a deflationary aspect to it too and that the overall affect can not be guessed simply by looking at direction of interest rate move alone.
    He has argued that Volkers inflation killer of high teen interest rates was in fact inflationary for some time because so much added interest income was added and the income was basically free. You did nothing for it except stick money in a bank. He has argued that inflation wasn't licked til oil prices came down.

    So you are right that one cant simply look at rate changes and determine where inflation will go....... which is why monetary policy is a mostly ineffective tool.

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  5. "Personally I say its time to stop calling it govt debt. Its not something they borrowed. Its not something they had to beg to get from someone else. If Congress approves a spending bill the spending gets done........ period."

    Well yes, but it's done either through raising taxes or 'issuing debt' or selling bonds. I don't think public debt or issuing bonds is the terrible thing that the Austerians say.

    However, it's not true that we can just keep selling more bonds without limit as I think Mosler probably knows.

    Again, on policy I agree with you-deficit hysteria is way overdone and there is nothing wrong with at least modest deficits-Obama's last budget was at least a start in the direction of that realization.

    Me saying that simply selling bonds without limit is not a panacea doesn't mean that we can't do a lot more than we have done, or that I don't agree that we should do a lot more govt spending financed by bonds rather than by raising taxes.

    . Actually I seem to remember some real barn burner debates between Krugman and some MMTers like Steve Keen because they were insulted that he suggested that they don't care about deficits.

    Sometimes I think with all the arguing they are just misunderstanding each other anyway.

    So I agree with you on what matters in my mind: principle and policy. I don't know I feel as strongly as you though about the wrongness of using the words 'public debt' as bonds are debt.

    Now there's been all kinds of alarmism about that while Japan shows that even having public debt close to 200% isn't a big deal. I mean why haven't the bond vigilantes raised rates in Japan? The real question is why the governments of the world aren't issuing debt right now with such low rates.

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  6. At best I guess the demand to prohibit the words 'public debt' is based on political calculations. I have no problem as long as what we replaced the phrase with doesn't obscure what bonds issued by the government are.

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  7. As for the Volcker disinflation, I'm no fan as I said again in a post today.

    "So, it's all about Fed independence. It's interesting that she suggests that auditing the Fed would lead to such major policy shifts. As someone who to this day isn't sure that I consider the Volcker disinflation the D-Day that it is considered by conventional wisdom, maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing. If you want to understand the issue that everyone admits is a problem today-wage stagnation-I think you have to start with the Volcker disinflation."

    http://diaryofarepublicanhater.blogspot.com/2015/02/after-her-dovish-comments-market-loves.html

    Here, I was specifically discussing her opposition to Audit the Fed. She had suggested that if we had the Audit back in the early 80s, Volcker may have not got to do his disinflation. I said that while I've never been that enthusiastic about Audit the Fed, that's the best argument I've heard for it yet.

    It's because I don't like the Volcker disinflation and more generally the Taylor Rule which cares more about keeping inflation low than unemployment low and growth high, that I think maybe Sumner is right at least on the question of switching from inflation targeting to NGDPLT.

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  8. I'm not sure anyone has made the case of why inflation targeting is preferable to NGDP targeting.

    If anyone has such an argument I want to hear it.

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  9. I do believe though in taking second, third, or fourth best policy-or any policy considerably better than the status quo.

    Ideally, I might prefer something out of Mosler and the MMT's toolbox but assuming we can't get that-and for the time being we won't-NGDP could at least be an improvement over inflation.

    On the other hand, I guess you always argue that NGDP is what they start with then they get GDP an inflation so it may not be much of a change. I just remembered your criticism of NGDP now.

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  10. Bonds issued by the govt are a choice by that govt to offer safe interest bearing assets. They are not the same as a corporate bond where the corporation raises money. Corporate bond issues are zero sum, govt bond issues are not. There is more money added after a govt bond issue. During gold standard times they truly were debt instruments, after the gold window closed they are no longer.

    Calling it debt puts a huge negative spin on it. It is more accurately an asset for the people, it is more like equity rather than debt.

    What if we had a no bond policy?

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  11. So the govt gains nothing from offering them? I don't think it's such a negative spin. If it's an asset for the people it's got to be a liability for someone. Otherwise it's kind of like an Immaculate Asset.

    Again, I'm not against issuing it. But it's just not true that the govt just has to conjure money up through its printing press forever, no problem. Mosler and the MMTers admit that without taxes or bonds in time the money issued by the govt starts to be worth less.

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  12. To reiterate I agree we shouldn't worry about issuing debt when the govt spends money but just want to be clear what really happens.

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  13. If your basing this argument on something you read from Mosler or other MMTers, a link would be helpful.

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  14. So in theory, obviously, the govt can just keep printing money but by itself that one guarantee us productivity and at some point even if the money doesn't 'run out' it becomes worth less.

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  15. Actually for a jumping off into the discussion over public debt and how to understand it, one can look at the issue of Abbie Lerner's 'Functional Finance'

    https://varoufakis.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ta-on-debt-paper-1.pdf

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  16. I was just reading Mosler though, and he says that you still need a productive economy-printing money is not itself a panacea. He also says that public debt is not a burden on the future.

    "Nor is the public debt a burden on the future. How could
    it be? Everything produced in the future will be consumed
    in the future. How much will be produced depends on how
    productive the economy is at that time. This has nothing to
    do with the public debt today; a higher public debt today
    does not reduce future production - and if it motivates wise
    use of resources today, it may increase the productivity of the
    economy in the future."

    http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

    Actually while this link is to Mosler's piece on 'Innocent Frauds' the actual quote is a forward by Galbraith

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  17. Hey Greg, our discussion led me to write a piece about a confrontation Keynes had with Abba Lerner over public debt and printing money

    Keynes vs. Abba Lerner on public debt http://diaryofarepublicanhater.blogspot.com/2015/02/keynes-vs-abba-lerner-on-pubic-debt.html

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  18. As far as links, this is the best I can find for now

    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2009/11/what-if-government-just-prints-money.html

    but there was one Scott Fullwiler did (and I will find it eventually) that showed that in fact, when the govt spends it doesn't look for money borrow and then issue a bond to the private sector, what it does is spend first, creating an increase in deposits and then those deposits are used to purchase a bond.
    Now, as the above link shows, the whole purpose of bond issuance is to hit interest rate targets NOT to fund spending by borrowing money from the private sector. So any model which talks about crowding out or loanable funds or govt borrowing are just............. wrong!

    As to your comment about production, that is true but I think we are not trying to solve a lack of production problem or especially a lack of productive capacity. What we had starting in 2007/08 was a lack of sales in certain areas leading to layoffs as businesses could not meet their sales targets. So there was potential capacity that was being not used and something was needed to boost sales. The production is there but it needs paying customers to be realized.

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  19. Yeah I was just reading Fullwiler quoting Randall Wary actually. So what he seems to be saying is that the debt ceiling in fact doesn't have to be raised: that you can just keep on crediting accounts via money printing.

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  20. Let me suggest that even using the term money printing is inaccurate, because it suggests that there is another way that money comes into existence.

    If a money supply needs to be flexible, needs to expand and contract, what other process allows it to expand? Somewhere a decision is made to expand, or provide more or "print" more money. There is no natural, other, way.

    Using the term printing money is simply a loaded term and it only has some meaning when you are doing something different than usual. In gold standard days they had all money redeemable for gold but every once in a while they would print non gold tied dollars (the greenbacks were some) and these were "less" valuable of course and were scorned. Today no such thing exists so really the term printing is just a scare tactic.

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  21. See this again, begs more questions than it answers. Apparently you've bought in totally with MMT-and that's not a criticism as I find their ideas interesting, just an observation.

    The reason I find it question begging here though is you're telling me how we shouldn't define things, how we shouldn't see them, but not how we should define them and how we should see them. Without that it begs some interesting questions but doesn't answer them.

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